The Anti-Slavery Examiner
Chapter 211 : _Extract from "Debates in the Federal Convention" of 1787, for the formation

_Extract from "Debates in the Federal Convention" of 1787, for the formation of the Const.i.tution of the United States_.

Monday, June 11, 1787.

It was then moved by Mr. Rutledge, seconded by Mr. Butler, to add to the words, "equitable ratio of representation," at the end of the motion just agreed to, the words, "according to the quotas of contribution." On motion of Mr. Wilson, seconded by Mr. Pinckney, this was postponed, in order to add, after the words, "equitable rates of representation," the words following: "In proportion to the whole number of white and other free citizens and inhabitants of every age, s.e.x and condition, including those bound to servitude for a term of years, and three fifths of all other persons not comprehended in the foregoing description, except Indians not paying taxes, in each State"--this being the rule in the act of Congress, agreed to by eleven States, for apportioning quotas of revenue on the States, and requiring a census only every five, seven, or ten years.

Mr. Gerry (of Ma.s.sachusetts) thought property not the rule of representation. Why, then, should the blacks, who were property in the South, be in the rule of representation more than, the cattle and horses of the North?

On the question,--Ma.s.sachusetts, Connecticut, New York, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, aye--9; New jersey, Delaware, no--2. _Vol. II. pp._ 842-3.

Sat.u.r.day, June 30, 1787.

He (Mr. Madison) admitted that every peculiar interest, whether in any cla.s.s of citizens, or any description of states, ought to be secured as far as possible. Wherever there is danger of attack, there ought to be given a const.i.tutional power of defence. But he contended that the States were divided into different interests, not by their difference of size, but by other circ.u.mstances; the most material of which resulted partly from climate, but princ.i.p.ally from the effects of their having or not having slaves. These two causes concurred in forming the great division of interests in the United States. It did not lie between the large and small States. IT LAY BETWEEN THE NORTHERN AND SOUTHERN; and if any defensive power were necessary, it ought to be mutually given to these two interests. He was so strongly impressed with this important truth, that he had been casting about in his mind for some expedient that would answer the purpose. The one which had occurred was, that instead of proportioning the votes of the States in both branches to their respective numbers of inhabitants, computing the slaves in the ratio of five to three, they should he represented in one branch according to the number of free inhabitants only; and in the other, according to the whole number, counting the slaves us free. By this arrangement the Southern scale would have the advantage in one House, and the Northern in the other. He had been restrained from proposing this expedient by two considerations; one was his unwillingness to urge any diversity of interests on an occasion where it is but too apt to arise of itself; the other was, the inequality of powers that must be vested in the two branches, and which would destroy the equilibrium of interests. _pp._ 1006-7.

Monday, July 9, 1787.

Mr. Patterson considered the proposed estimate for the future according to the combined rules of numbers and wealth, as too vague.

For this reason New Jersey was against it. He could regard negro slaves in no light but as property. They are no free agents, have no personal liberty, no faculty of acquiring property, but on the contrary are themselves property, and like other property, entirely at the will of the master. Has a man in Virginia a number of votes in proportion to the number of his slaves? And if negroes are not represented in the States to which they belong, why should they be represented in the General Government. What is the true principle of representation? It is an experiment by which an a.s.sembly of certain individuals, chosen, by the people, is subst.i.tuted in place of the inconvenient meeting of the people themselves. If such a meeting of the people was actually to take place, would the slaves vote? They would not. Why then should they be represented? He was also against such an indirect encouragement of the slave trade; observing that Congress, in their act relating to the change of the eighth article of Confederation, had been a.s.signed to use the term "slaves," and had subst.i.tuted a description.

Mr. Madison reminded Mr. Patterson that his doctrine of representation, which was in its principle the genuine one, must for ever silence the pretensions of the small States to an equality of votes with the large ones. They ought to vote in the same proportion in which their citizens would do if the people of all the States were collectively met. He suggested, as a proper ground of compromise, that in the first branch the States should be represented according to their number of free inhabitants; and in the second, which has for one of its primary objects, the guardians.h.i.+p of property, according to the whole number, including slaves.

Mr. Butler urged warmly the justice and necessity of regarding wealth in the apportionment of representation.

Mr. King had always expected, that, as the Southern States are the richest, they would not league themselves with the Northern, unless some respect was paid to their superior wealth. If the latter expect those preferential distinctions in commerce, and other advantages which they will derive from the connexion, they must not expect to receive them without allowing some advantages in return. Eleven out of thirteen of the States had agreed to consider slaves in the apportionment of taxation; and taxation and representation ought to go together. _pp_. 1054-5-6.

Tuesday, July 10; 1787.

Mr. King remarked that the four Eastern States, having 800,000 souls, have one-third fewer representatives than the four Southern States, having not more than 700,000 souls, rating the blacks as five for three. The Eastern people will advert to these circ.u.mstances, and be dissatisfied. He believed them to be very desirous of uniting with their Southern brethren, but did not think it prudent to rely so far on that disposition, as to subject them to any gross inequality. He was fully convinced that THE QUESTION CONCERNING A DIFFERENCE OF INTERESTS DID NOT LIE WHERE IT HAD HITHERTO BEEN DISCUSSED, BETWEEN THE GREAT AND SMALL STATES: BUT BETWEEN THE SOUTHERN AND EASTERN. _p_.

1057.

Wednesday, July 11, 1787.

Mr. Butler and General Pinckney insisted that blacks be included in rule of representation _equally_ with the whites; and for that purpose moved that the words "three-fifths" be struck out.

Mr. Gerry thought that three fifths of them was, to say the least, the full proportion that could be admitted.

Mr. Gorham. This ratio was fixed by Congress as a rule of taxation.

Then, it was urged, by the delegates representing the States having slaves, that the blacks were still more inferior to freemen. At present, when the ratio of representation is to be established, we are a.s.sured that they are equal to freemen. The arguments on the former occasion had convinced them that three fifths was pretty near the just proportion, he should vote according to the same opinion now.

Mr. Butler insisted that the labor of a slave in South Carolina was as productive and valuable as that of a freeman in Ma.s.sachusetts; that as wealth was the greatest means of defence and utility to the nation, they were equally valuable to it with freemen; and that consequently an equal representation ought to be allowed for them in a government which was inst.i.tuted princ.i.p.ally, for the protection of property, and was itself to be supported by property.

Mr. Mason could not agree to the motion, notwithstanding it was favorable to Virginia, because he thought it unjust. It was certain that the slaves were valuable, as they raised the value of land, increased the exports and imports, and of course the revenue, would supply the means of feeding and supporting an army, and might in cases of emergency become themselves soldiers. As in these important respects they were useful to the community at large, they ought not to be excluded from the estimate of representation. He could not, however, regard them as equal to freemen, and could not vote for them as such. He added, as worthy of remark, that the Southern States have this peculiar species of property, over and above the other species of property common to all the States.

Mr. Williamson reminded Mr. Gorham, that if the Southern States contended for the inferiority of blacks to whites, when taxation was in view, the Eastern States, on the same occasion, contended for their equality. He did not, however, either then or now, concur in either extreme, but approved of the ratio of three-fifths.

On Mr. Butler's motion, for considering blacks as equal to whites in the apportionment of representation,--Delaware, South Carolina, Georgia, aye--3; Ma.s.sachusetts, Connecticut, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, no--7. New York not on the floor.

Mr. Gouverneur Morris said he had several objections to the proposition of Mr. Williamson. In the first place it fettered the Legislature too much. In the second place, it would exclude some States altogether who would not have a sufficient number to ent.i.tle them to a single representation. In the third place, it will not consist with the resolution pa.s.sed on Sat.u.r.day last, authorizing the Legislature to adjust the representation, from time to time on the principles of population and wealth; nor with the principles of equity. If slaves were to be considered as inhabitants, not as wealth, then the said resolution would not be pursued; if as wealth, then why is no other wealth but slaves included? These objections may perhaps be removed by amendments.... Another objection with him, against admitting the blacks into the census, was, that the people of Pennsylvania would revolt at the idea of being put on a footing with slaves. They would reject any plan that was to have such an effect.

pp. 1067-8-9 & 1072.

WEDNESDAY, JULY 11, 1787.

The next clause as to three-fifths of the negroes being considered:

Mr. King, being much opposed to fixing numbers as the rule of representation, was particularly so on account of the blacks. He thought the admission of them along with whites at all, would excite great discontents among the States having no slaves. He had never said, as to any particular point, that he would in no event acquiesce in and support it; but he would say that if in any case such a declaration was to be made by him, it would be in this.

He remarked that in the temporary allotment of representatives made by the Committee, the Southern States had received more than the number of their white and three-fifths of their black inhabitants ent.i.tled them to.

Mr. Sherman. South Carolina had not more beyond her proportion than New York and New Hamps.h.i.+re; nor either of them more than was necessary in order to avoid fractions, or reducing them below their proportion.

Georgia had more; but the rapid growth of that State seemed to justify it. In general the allotment might not be just, but considering all circ.u.mstances he was satisfied with it.

Mr. Gorham was aware that there might be some weight in what had fallen from his colleague, as to the umbrage which might be taken by the people of the Eastern States. But he recollected that when the proposition of Congress for changing the eighth Article of the Confederation was before the Legislature of Ma.s.sachusetts, the only difficulty then was, to satisfy them that the negroes ought not to have been counted equally with the whites, instead of being counted in the ratio of three-fifths only.[1]

[Footnote 1: They were then to have been a rule of taxation only.]

Mr. Wilson did not well see, on what principle the admission of blacks in the proportion of three fifths could be explained. Are they admitted as citizens--then why are they not admitted on an equality with white citizens? Are they admitted as property--then why is not other property admitted into the computation? These were difficulties, however, which he thought must be overruled by the necessity of compromise. He had some apprehensions also, from the tendency of the blending of the blacks with the whites, to give disgust to the people of Pennsylvania, as had been intimated by his colleague (Mr.

Gouverneur Morris.)

Mr. Gouvemeur Morris was compelled to declare himself reduced to the dilemma of doing injustice to the Southern States, or to human nature; and he must therefore do it to the former. For he could never agree to give such encouragement to the slave trade, as would be given by allowing them a representation for their negroes; and he did not believe those States would ever confederate on terms that would deprive them of that trade.

On the question for agreeing to include three-fifths of the blacks,--Connecticut, Virginia, North Carolina. Georgia, aye--4; Ma.s.sachusetts, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland,[2] South Carolina, no--6. pp. 1076-7-8.

[Footnote 2: Mr. Carroll said, in explanation of the vote of Maryland, that he wished the _phraseology_ to be altered as to obviate, if possible, the danger which had been expressed of giving umbrage to the Eastern and Middle States.]

THURSDAY, July 12, 1787.

Mr. Butler contended that representation should be according to the full number of inhabitants, including all the blacks.

General Pinckney was alarmed at what was said yesterday, [by Gouverneur Morris,] concerning the negroes. He was now again alarmed at what had been thrown out concerning the taxing of exports. South Carolina has in one year exported to the amount of 600,000. sterling, all which was the fruit of the labor of her blacks. Will she be represented in proportion to this amount? She will not. Neither ought she then be subject to a tax on it. He hoped a clause would be inserted in the system, restraining the Legislature from taxing exports.

Mr. Gouverneur Morris having so varied his motion by inserting the word "direct," it pa.s.sed, _nem. con._, as follows: "provided always that direct taxation ought to be proportioned to representation."

Mr. Davie said it was high time now to speak out. He saw that it was meant by some gentlemen to deprive the Southern States of any share of representation for their blacks. He was sure that North Carolina would never confederate on any terms that did not rate them at least as three-fifths. If the Eastern States meant, therefore, to exclude them altogether, the business was at an end.

Dr. Johnson thought that wealth and population were the true, equitable rules of representation; but he conceived that these two principles resolved themselves into one, population being the best measure of wealth. He concluded, therefore, that the number of people ought to be established as the rule, and that all descriptions, including blacks _equally_ with the whites, ought to fall within the computation. As various opinions had been expressed on the subject, he would move that a committee might be appointed to take them into consideration, and report them.

Mr. Gouverneur Morris. It had been said that it is high time to speak out. As one member, he would candidly do so. He came here to form a compact for the good of America. He was ready to do so with all the States. He hoped, and believed, that all would enter into such compact. If they would not, he was ready to join with any States that would. But as the compact was to be voluntary, it is in vain for the Eastern States to insist on what the Southern States will never agree to. It is equally vain for the latter to require, what the other States can never admit; and he verily believed the people of Pennsylvania will never agree to a representation of negroes. What can be desired by these States more then has been already proposed--that the legislature shall from time to time regulate representation according to population and wealth?

General Pinckney desired that the rule of wealth should be ascertained, and not left to the pleasure of the legislature; and that property in slaves should not be exposed to danger, under a government inst.i.tuted for the protection of property.

The first clause in the Report of the first Grand Committee was postponed.

Mr. Ellsworth, in order to carry into effect the principle established, moved to add to the last clause adopted by the House, the words following, "and that the rule of contribution for direct taxation, for the support of the government of the United States, shall be the number of white inhabitants, and three-fifths of every other description in the several States, until some other use rule that shall more accurately ascertain the wealth of the several States, can be devised and adopted by the Legislature."

Mr. Butler seconded the motion, in order that it might be committed.